I love this! My Substack is titled You're Not That Nice, and I write about authenticity and the many ways to replace the word nice with the word kind. We can do this, ladies!
When I moved to Chicago, everyone seemed so "nice". I began producing a storytelling night and that is where I heard all the true confessions. Which made me feel better about myself. After a couple years I wrote a campy little song for one of our anniversary shows. These were some of the lyrics:
You're not nice, and I'm so glad,
Your not-being-nice is not so bad.
Now I know you're just like me—
A terrible person, to the lowest degree.
We're mischievous, mixed-up, and frivolous,
Haunted and haggard, proud of our wickedness.
You're incredulous, awkwardly inelegant,
While I take the prize for artificial intelligence
(I've never been very bright).
Dreadful and shameless, like a speedo worn tight. (ouch!)
Thanks Laura! Totally and utterly brilliant!! Completely and utterly nailed it! This from a 68 year old ex-Catholic, 'good and clever woman', who has ended up hating the place she is in because she has spent her entire life, including yesterday, but likely not today if she can manage it, being beyond-nice to a whole range of (work and family) male and female, undeserving and highly ungrateful (or at least not able to say thanks or notice anything!) arses. Joanne
Oh man, the “nice” label is such a struggle and I am glad that in general, we have come to realize how crippling it can be for women. In my lived experience, many of us have really struggled with this and most men just don’t. Absolutely no ‘figs’ given, if you catch my drift!
A huge season of growth in my own life centered around the nice label. Underneath my own desire to be “nice” was really a desire to be and perhaps more importantly, to be considered a “good” person. That’s where the resentment bit you brought up played into my own story. Learning that it is ok to say no to a Weeknd concert is a difficult but important thing to learn!
There’s so much to say around this topic and as usual, I appreciate your nuance here. You are probably aware of the work of Louise Perry? Your understanding here is reminding me of her book “The Case against the Sexual Revolution” in which she goes into consent and the overall social expectation that women are and will be “agreeable” i.e. “nice.” Such an important dialogue for us all to have!
Heartfelt, thank you. Pretty eye opening as somewhere along the way I started thinking about all the masks we wear. I’ve not thought about that for years in any depth. Went back to reread and got stuck on the visual metaphor of the lego mini-figure. Very interesting how we slip and slide away from honesty in our daily lives.
Being overly nice is a bit like giving false praise. The former devalues genuine kindness, the latter a genuine compliment. This essay made me think of my wife who is honest about how she feels, whether nice or not.
We were once at an outdoor wedding without a lot of seating. I sat down on a wide stone staircase below a group of women and we started talking. My wife came over and I introduced her. My wife declared without looking at the women "I don't care to meet anyone new." It reminded me of something the dowager/maggie Smith character would say on Downton Abbey
I was astounded and also thought it was funny. It turned out that the women had earlier refused my wife and her friend permission to sit on my step because they were "reserving it."
Sometimes my wife's honesty can come off as being brusque. But I always know exactly how she's feeling, which is the greater gift.
I remember being at a concert where a female acquaintance was singing and playing guitar onstage with a drummer keeping the beat. She was god-awful. Her voice was meh, her songwriting banal, her patter awkward - I cringed at everything about the performance and felt embarrassed for her because she clearly was enjoying herself - how the hell could she not know how BAD she was? Afterward, I tried to avoid her but she spied me in the crowd, bounded over, and said excitedly, "What did you think?" She asked so earnestly! But I couldn't, in good conscience, lie and say that I enjoyed it or liked it, i.e., I couldn't make myself respond "nicely," which is too often the default button of my female conditioning. I did a mad mental scramble to find something to say that was just as true as the fact that I hated the performance, because there are always many true things in a situation. So I said warmly, "Oh, my, you put your whole heart and soul into that performance, didn't you?" Which was absolutely true - she did! The fact that I didn't like the result didn't diminish that truth. She beamed, and said, "I really, really did!" (In my fuzzy memory, her hand was on her heart when she said this. Not sure it was, but let's go with it.) I said, "What was it like for you, up there?" She said a few happy words, then got whisked away by friends who clearly had loved her performance. And I was so glad to have used a "harm reduction" approach to my truth-telling. I let go of being nice and instead chose a way to be kind - and it felt just as honest as my honest dislike of her performance. Also, the truth was, she DID put her heart and soul into her performance. In hindsight, looking through a lens of compassionate curiosity, I now see her performance as an act of bravery. She put her heart and soul into something that was important to her, then was courageous enough to share it vulnerably. Good on her, I say! I've not seen her in 30 years - no clue where she is or what she's doing - but I hope she has continued to put her heart and soul into what is important to her and that life has treated her kindly when she has. Not nicely, but kindly.
I love this Ronnie! It’s exactly the kind of thing we need more of. The negative reaction isn’t always the most salient one, and it’s not always constructive to share. You managed to be completely honest in what you chose to share and to find the good in something that, as you point out, may not have been your cup of tea, but still had other kinds of value. This is a lovely example of decency and compassion without self-compromise or dishonesty. Being kind without autopiloted niceness. Good on that lady indeed, and on you too!
I think, in snarky moments where I am being brutally honest about something that is 100% true for me, I am actually over-reveling in the absolutely fucking THRILL of being right. There's no gray area to dampen the dopamine rush of being right. I let myself off the hook for being kind, or decent, or curious - which, in the moment, might come at the cost of letting go of my perfect rightness about something that no one would argue is perfectly right. I'd say it's as good as an orgasm but it's actually better because I can experience it again and again just by RECOLLECTING the moment, and savoring it all over again. It has a bracing edge that kindness just doesn't have. But - and, shit, there's always a but - it never really leads anywhere good, any place that I respect as a human who wants to not need that kind of ego-inflation. So you see my dilemma.
Hmmm! A lot to think about. I like being nice because I believe a little kindness goes a long way, why be an asshole/ difficult/obstructive/ uncooperative/not nice ( I struggle with what is the opposite of nice but they are the words that come to mind at the moment) if niceness is neither harmful to me nor the other person?
On the other hand…. It is not just my agency that is at risk. Niceness can rob me of my agency, but it can also rob another person of their agency, by being nice I can assume I know what the other person wants, thinks or feels, responding with what I think is best for them. So, sometimes niceness neither benefits me nor the other person. Does niceness sometimes border on arrogance?
A people pleaser in the past, I am less so now, I can now – usually- stand back and let other people take responsibility for their own needs rather than jumping in to fulfil their needs in the way that I think is right. Pause before action is a lesson hard learned!
Although, I still struggle with the niggling thought that not being nice equals selfishness. It is hard to change the many years of conditioning that began in childhood when niceness in girls was rewarded while leading them to become invisible too.
I've just finished reading 'Men Who Hate Women' by Laura Bastes which made me furious and sick at the destruction toxic masculinity, violent misogyny and anti-feminism are doing to society. If pedalling a pathetic and wholly inaccurate lie about what it is to be a man is at the root of many of the problems men bring to the world (it is) this piece wonderfully illustrates how even characteristics and behaviours that might first appear to be virtuous do nothing more than perpetuate a devastating problem.
I love this! My Substack is titled You're Not That Nice, and I write about authenticity and the many ways to replace the word nice with the word kind. We can do this, ladies!
When I moved to Chicago, everyone seemed so "nice". I began producing a storytelling night and that is where I heard all the true confessions. Which made me feel better about myself. After a couple years I wrote a campy little song for one of our anniversary shows. These were some of the lyrics:
You're not nice, and I'm so glad,
Your not-being-nice is not so bad.
Now I know you're just like me—
A terrible person, to the lowest degree.
We're mischievous, mixed-up, and frivolous,
Haunted and haggard, proud of our wickedness.
You're incredulous, awkwardly inelegant,
While I take the prize for artificial intelligence
(I've never been very bright).
Dreadful and shameless, like a speedo worn tight. (ouch!)
Oh, baby, we're better—we're better than nice.
Thanks Laura! Totally and utterly brilliant!! Completely and utterly nailed it! This from a 68 year old ex-Catholic, 'good and clever woman', who has ended up hating the place she is in because she has spent her entire life, including yesterday, but likely not today if she can manage it, being beyond-nice to a whole range of (work and family) male and female, undeserving and highly ungrateful (or at least not able to say thanks or notice anything!) arses. Joanne
Oh man, the “nice” label is such a struggle and I am glad that in general, we have come to realize how crippling it can be for women. In my lived experience, many of us have really struggled with this and most men just don’t. Absolutely no ‘figs’ given, if you catch my drift!
A huge season of growth in my own life centered around the nice label. Underneath my own desire to be “nice” was really a desire to be and perhaps more importantly, to be considered a “good” person. That’s where the resentment bit you brought up played into my own story. Learning that it is ok to say no to a Weeknd concert is a difficult but important thing to learn!
There’s so much to say around this topic and as usual, I appreciate your nuance here. You are probably aware of the work of Louise Perry? Your understanding here is reminding me of her book “The Case against the Sexual Revolution” in which she goes into consent and the overall social expectation that women are and will be “agreeable” i.e. “nice.” Such an important dialogue for us all to have!
Heartfelt, thank you. Pretty eye opening as somewhere along the way I started thinking about all the masks we wear. I’ve not thought about that for years in any depth. Went back to reread and got stuck on the visual metaphor of the lego mini-figure. Very interesting how we slip and slide away from honesty in our daily lives.
Being overly nice is a bit like giving false praise. The former devalues genuine kindness, the latter a genuine compliment. This essay made me think of my wife who is honest about how she feels, whether nice or not.
We were once at an outdoor wedding without a lot of seating. I sat down on a wide stone staircase below a group of women and we started talking. My wife came over and I introduced her. My wife declared without looking at the women "I don't care to meet anyone new." It reminded me of something the dowager/maggie Smith character would say on Downton Abbey
I was astounded and also thought it was funny. It turned out that the women had earlier refused my wife and her friend permission to sit on my step because they were "reserving it."
Sometimes my wife's honesty can come off as being brusque. But I always know exactly how she's feeling, which is the greater gift.
She sounds awesome!
I remember being at a concert where a female acquaintance was singing and playing guitar onstage with a drummer keeping the beat. She was god-awful. Her voice was meh, her songwriting banal, her patter awkward - I cringed at everything about the performance and felt embarrassed for her because she clearly was enjoying herself - how the hell could she not know how BAD she was? Afterward, I tried to avoid her but she spied me in the crowd, bounded over, and said excitedly, "What did you think?" She asked so earnestly! But I couldn't, in good conscience, lie and say that I enjoyed it or liked it, i.e., I couldn't make myself respond "nicely," which is too often the default button of my female conditioning. I did a mad mental scramble to find something to say that was just as true as the fact that I hated the performance, because there are always many true things in a situation. So I said warmly, "Oh, my, you put your whole heart and soul into that performance, didn't you?" Which was absolutely true - she did! The fact that I didn't like the result didn't diminish that truth. She beamed, and said, "I really, really did!" (In my fuzzy memory, her hand was on her heart when she said this. Not sure it was, but let's go with it.) I said, "What was it like for you, up there?" She said a few happy words, then got whisked away by friends who clearly had loved her performance. And I was so glad to have used a "harm reduction" approach to my truth-telling. I let go of being nice and instead chose a way to be kind - and it felt just as honest as my honest dislike of her performance. Also, the truth was, she DID put her heart and soul into her performance. In hindsight, looking through a lens of compassionate curiosity, I now see her performance as an act of bravery. She put her heart and soul into something that was important to her, then was courageous enough to share it vulnerably. Good on her, I say! I've not seen her in 30 years - no clue where she is or what she's doing - but I hope she has continued to put her heart and soul into what is important to her and that life has treated her kindly when she has. Not nicely, but kindly.
I was hoping for a big reveal where it turns out your friend was Dua Lipa doing her first live show 😏
I would KILL for that to be how this went, because then I'd do a stand-up routine about it and I would so slay.
I love this Ronnie! It’s exactly the kind of thing we need more of. The negative reaction isn’t always the most salient one, and it’s not always constructive to share. You managed to be completely honest in what you chose to share and to find the good in something that, as you point out, may not have been your cup of tea, but still had other kinds of value. This is a lovely example of decency and compassion without self-compromise or dishonesty. Being kind without autopiloted niceness. Good on that lady indeed, and on you too!
I think, in snarky moments where I am being brutally honest about something that is 100% true for me, I am actually over-reveling in the absolutely fucking THRILL of being right. There's no gray area to dampen the dopamine rush of being right. I let myself off the hook for being kind, or decent, or curious - which, in the moment, might come at the cost of letting go of my perfect rightness about something that no one would argue is perfectly right. I'd say it's as good as an orgasm but it's actually better because I can experience it again and again just by RECOLLECTING the moment, and savoring it all over again. It has a bracing edge that kindness just doesn't have. But - and, shit, there's always a but - it never really leads anywhere good, any place that I respect as a human who wants to not need that kind of ego-inflation. So you see my dilemma.
Hmmm! A lot to think about. I like being nice because I believe a little kindness goes a long way, why be an asshole/ difficult/obstructive/ uncooperative/not nice ( I struggle with what is the opposite of nice but they are the words that come to mind at the moment) if niceness is neither harmful to me nor the other person?
On the other hand…. It is not just my agency that is at risk. Niceness can rob me of my agency, but it can also rob another person of their agency, by being nice I can assume I know what the other person wants, thinks or feels, responding with what I think is best for them. So, sometimes niceness neither benefits me nor the other person. Does niceness sometimes border on arrogance?
A people pleaser in the past, I am less so now, I can now – usually- stand back and let other people take responsibility for their own needs rather than jumping in to fulfil their needs in the way that I think is right. Pause before action is a lesson hard learned!
Although, I still struggle with the niggling thought that not being nice equals selfishness. It is hard to change the many years of conditioning that began in childhood when niceness in girls was rewarded while leading them to become invisible too.
I've just finished reading 'Men Who Hate Women' by Laura Bastes which made me furious and sick at the destruction toxic masculinity, violent misogyny and anti-feminism are doing to society. If pedalling a pathetic and wholly inaccurate lie about what it is to be a man is at the root of many of the problems men bring to the world (it is) this piece wonderfully illustrates how even characteristics and behaviours that might first appear to be virtuous do nothing more than perpetuate a devastating problem.